SKILLS PODCAST: THE FUTURE OF TALENT UNLOCKING BRILLIANCE:
RECRUITING FOR SKILLS VS. EXPERIENCE

Unlocking Brilliance: Recruiting for Skills vs. Experience

John:

Hey everyone. Welcome to the second episode of Korn Ferry's Podcast series where we'll be discussing skills spotting and how to recruit for skills versus experience. And I have to tell you, this is a topic I find really interesting because it challenges some of the conventional wisdom in the recruiting and talent acquisition area. And I personally love topics that challenge the status quo. But this isn't just some trendy hiring strategy. There's a lot of research to support this shift to skills over experience. And let's face it, spotting skills, it isn't always easy because you need to look more closely at resumes, including areas that you might typically ignore, like let's say hobbies. You need to ask different questions of candidates and things like that. But we're going to get into all that and learn how to do this with my guests, Tracy Bosch and David Ellis. Welcome, Tracy and David, thanks for coming on to help teach us more about all this.

Tracy Bosch:

Thanks for having us, John.

David Ellis:

Yeah, thanks, John. It's great to be here and looking forward to our chat.

John:

Now, before we jump into things, maybe you can both just tell us a little bit about yourselves and your connections to this topic. David, why don't we start with you?

David:

Of course. Yeah, happy to. So I lead our talent acquisition transformation team here at Korn Ferry, and that's a global team of problem solvers, innovators who help our clients take their talent acquisition functions up to the next level and help them get ready for the future. So this topic about skills-based hiring is something that we're helping a number of companies with at the moment, just helping them navigate it, figure it out. And it's something I'm also really interested in myself as one of the current hot topics within talent acquisition and really in the broader talent space.

John:

Yeah. That's great. And how about you, Tracy?

Tracy:

Right, so I'm a leader in Korn Ferry's organization strategy advisory practice, John. And I specialize in work, so everything related to work. I live day to day in the world of skills and focusing on how all the changes that we're seeing in work and in jobs are impacting the kind of talent that's needed in the business. So the clients that I work with are shifting not just talent acquisition, but their whole approach to talent management through a skills-based lens. So I'm also very excited to talk about skills spotting with you both today.

John:

That's great. Okay, so earlier I mentioned that this whole idea of recruiting for skills rather than just experience is a bit of a shift in the conventional way of talent acquisition thinking. And I'm wondering why you think this shift is happening? I mean, this wasn't a recruiting strategy that talent acquisition leaders and teams would seriously consider maybe a handful of years ago, and now you're starting to hear more and more about how effective and necessary it is. So Tracy, why do you think there's been this shift from, oh, that's a clever way of thinking to, we got to start doing this?

Tracy:

Yeah. I mean, I think that I probably see two really main drivers for this shift. And the first one is pretty foundational. I mean, work overall is changing really fast right now. There's automation going on in businesses across industries, the impact of generative AI, remote work, agile teams, just the actual work that we are doing is changing really fast, but more importantly, how we do that work is changing even faster, okay? So I think what we hear is that organizations are just really trying to get a grip on the skills that are going to enable work to be done in a different sort of way. They're also trying to get a grip on some of the skills that are enduring, the kinds of skills that are going to inject some learning agility into the business, innovation into the business, figure out what it is that's changing in their actual organizations, in their actual jobs.

That means a different kind of way of looking at the skills that people are going to need to be successful. So that's probably the first main driver, and it's very big macro one. The second driver that I see is that employers are really starting to experience the true value of diversity in the workforce. So they're getting very serious about breaking down the unconscious barriers that have been getting in the way of bringing a wider range of people into the business. And I think that as employers look to hire and enable people who actually have the ability to do the work, not just the people who have the formal pedigree, this shift to skills-based hiring, skills-based talent strategies helps to create a more inclusive level playing field that gets beyond the labels and finds people who genuinely have what it takes.

John:

Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. Okay, so as we speak, there are recruiters, hiring managers, talent acquisition people, and leaders from all different categories and industries who are listening to this, who are in the process of searching for candidates. And they might be thinking, okay, this all sounds interesting, but how do I, and even my team start making this shift. I mean, does it begin with developing some sort of master list of skills for each position or role, maybe getting the team together and saying, let's put aside what we think the perfect candidate's experience would be and make a list of the skills that this position requires. And Tracy, where should they start? What's the first step?

Tracy:

Well, definitely making a list of the skills that the physician requires, right? That's part of it. I think also being clear about which of those skills are technical skills, which of those skills are behaviors? Because those are very, very different. And I think to kind of avoid falling into the trap of creating these kind of giganto lists of all of the bazillion skills that are needed for the role, we see that a little bit as well and just getting really crisp about the types of skills that are really going to differentiate for that work that needs to be done.

John:

So I want to talk about some specific areas of talent acquisition and candidate experience and that process and dig into how the folks listening might tweak their approaches and mindsets to start getting comfortable with this skills over experience approach. And the first area I want to dig into is job postings, which as you know, are traditionally very experience heavy. In other words, the relevant experience section of a posting is typically the longest section. Of course, what we're talking about here almost flies in the face of that a bit. So David, how should job postings be handled?

David:

Yeah, great question, John. So I think the job posting itself should really reflect the job description. And of course, that's where we find information about the work to be performed. It's where we find the skills required. And so traditionally, to your point where we might've said, okay, you need to have X years in this or Y years doing exactly that in the specific type of organization, then the trend now becomes how do we focus less on those years of experience and more on the actual skills required to perform the work? So take the time to define them and then they will be reflected in the job posting. Those skills will cover, as Tracy alluded to, not just the technical skills like the ability to use this application or that application, but also the behavioral competencies required to perform effectively in the role. And I think importantly, all of that should match up to reality of life on the job as well.

And then I think the other thing, and I think you may have alluded to this as well, is that many organizations are starting to do this or already some way down the track of doing this, but the question is, do you really need that master's degree for this job? Are you even sure you need a degree at all? And for some roles you will, but organizations are taking a hard look at that because they realize it can unnecessarily restrict the talent pool and diversity when you insist on those things and may not need all of them. So trying to be as inclusive as you can be and focus on the skills needed is really the ticket here.

John:

Yeah, I think it's going to be really interesting to see how that evolves. And Tracy, beyond the job posting, are there things maybe companies should do to let candidates know that they're focused on skills rather than experience?

Tracy:

Yeah, I mean, that really gets to the heart of how you articulate your employee value proposition, right? So why are you focusing on skills? Because different organizations are at different places in their maturity curve on moving to skills-based talent management, and actually they're doing it for different reasons. So I think when you're speaking to candidates about the focus on skills, you need to be clear about do you want to send a message in your EVP about equity, diversity, and inclusion? Do you want to send a message about innovation, about transformation and the need for agile learners with a range of skills? Do you want to send a message about future career progression and how career paths work in an organization that's focused on skills?

So I think that getting kind of [inaudible 00:10:07] about the employer value proposition in the context of skills is important obviously for talent acquisition. Also, just broadly internally in talent management, the way that you talk about that shift, integrating it into your performance management, into your rewards, promotions, all of that, I think it needs to feel very real and very authentic. Otherwise, it just comes across a little bit tactical.

John:

Yeah, that's great advice. What about you, David? Any thoughts on this?

David:

Well, I love what you just said then Tracy and I would add that we can also encourage employees to post on LinkedIn or other channels about their experiences, either through the hiring process being evaluated through skills or through the development journeys that they then undertake after they become employees of the organization. And that's something to be proud of for them because they're on those journeys. And having that out there in the market will also I think, contribute to the EVP messaging, Tracy that you spoke about.

John:

Yeah, that's great. So I want to talk about reviewing resumes. What should the listeners be considering or doing differently when it comes to that, David?

David:

Well, I think this connects back nicely to the earlier piece here that we talked about around postings, because what we're really trying to do is make sure that our reason they review is focusing on the skills that we identified were important to perform the work. So the key I think is in challenging ourselves to focus less on what school they went to and how long they spent in each job because are these really the yardsticks you want? So I think it's more about focusing on what the resume is telling you about the skills that people have. So person A, for example, could have been in a job for five years but stagnated after the first year, and you might not know that from the resume, but person B might've had just two years in role, but may have been actively growing the entire time. But if you're valuing tenure over skills, you can trip yourself up here inadvertently by excluding that person B in favor of the person A.

And then the final thing I would say on this is that I think it can get a bit tricky because even if someone says in their resume, so they specifically call out, I have this skill, I have that skill. And at some point in the process... And I think we're going to talk about this a bit more as we go here, but at some point we have to ask or actually validate, do they really have that skill? What's the level of proficiency and how do we go about doing that in a way that brings the skills that people have to the front of the evaluation?

John:

Yeah, that's great advice. And what about interviewing candidates? I'm assuming the typical business as usual candidate interview might need to change since interviews would now need to start probing a bit more to uncover those skills that might be a great fit for the role of the organization, David?

David:

Yeah, a couple of thoughts here, and I'd love to kind of hear what Tracy thinks about this as well, but some opening thoughts for me. Don't forget about technical skills altogether. So make sure that they do have those technical skills that are important to you for the role. If someone says they're proficient in creating slideware and that's what you need them to do on day one, then make sure that you test that they can do that. But as we were saying, the behavioral competencies are such an important area of focus. So ask them to talk to you about relating this back to what you said in the posting, but likely to include something on problem solving, something on collaboration. You want to ask them for examples that test these concepts and encourage them to talk about how they've demonstrated these on the job. And then I think beyond the interview as well, John, assessments can help you with this as well.

And as we discussed earlier, I think Tracy mentioned that the traits and the drivers that also form part of the whole person, that's where you have a really strong combination of all of that. That's where you'll find the performance differentiation. So that's where the people who are going to make the greatest contributions to your organization can be found. And the good news is with assessments, they can give something back to the candidate. They can oftentimes provide a candidate report so they get to learn something about themselves, and it can serve as a useful foundation for development planning after they start as well.

John:

Yeah, that's great insight there. Tracy, anything to add about how interviewing might change?

Tracy:

Well, listen, I will say that David does a lot more interviewing than I do, but one of the things that I've always found fascinating is just how much you learn when you get really deep into the details on things, and particularly around behaviors. I mean, one of the stories I heard a colleague talking about was just around this whole business of intent when we're thinking about behaviors. And they talked about someone who is giving an example of how great they are at giving people feedback, right? And so you can talk about giving someone feedback, but you can hear in what they're talking about, whether did I give that person feedback because actually they're just not hitting the performance bar, and I need them to do that better, right?

Do better is different intent than, I felt like really they had this opportunity to develop. And that if they could reflect on where that went well and where that could be differently and this genuine intent to help others develop is quite different, right? I think that that's kind of an important piece when we're really getting underneath whether people really have what it takes, especially when it comes to stuff like learning agility and some of those more enduring behaviors in the organization.

John:

Yeah, I love that. So Tracy, let's say you're a recruiter or you're a hiring manager or someone interviewing a candidate and you find that they might not have the perfect work or job experience, but their skills seem to be a really good fit and you think they'd be a good hire. Now of course, the final hiring decision, oftentimes it isn't up to one person. Other people in the organization need to interview the person as well, and there's a chance that they might not see the same potential that you do because maybe they're still considering experience while you're looking at skills. How do you recommend a person navigate this situation?

Tracy:

Well, I mean, for a start, it probably goes back to before you get to this stage in the process and really kind of emphasizes the importance of before even the posting process, just making sure that folks are on the same page about the most critical skills for the role and what it is that you're looking for. Thinking strategically about what are the most fungible skills that are going to not just enable the candidate as they first come into the role, but that are going to kind of endure as there's transformation in the business. So I think that's a big piece of it. We spend quite a lot of time in our advisory practice building out assessment rubrics, both for technical skills and for behavioral skills. I think it's a lot easier to get people aligned on what you're hiring for when you have very good specific empirical skills that articulate what that skill looks like at different levels of sophistication. So you can actually pull evidence from the interview, link it to the specific skill indicators, and then kind of easier to get everyone on the same page.

John:

Yeah, that's great advice. And I do want to ask both of you, what are some of the big watch-outs here for an organizations when it comes to this topic of looking for skills over experience? Tracy, I'll start with you.

Tracy:

I would say big watch-outs are really to remember that not all skills are created equal. So technical skills, as David said, are really important not to skim over. They can be highly differentiating in the moment, very definition of hot skills, right? That's often what it is that we're looking for, right? These scarce skills. But the challenge is that as roles change, right? Which they're changing very quickly, so too do the technical skills that are needed. So often the technical skills are less enduring if you move on to a new tech stack or just processes change in the business. Okay, well now I need new technical skills, right? And the behaviors, they're fundamentally different. We learn them differently. They're more tightly wound into who we are as a person, right? So they're harder to develop. So I think I would say that would be an important watch out.

John:

Yeah, that's great. David, any watch-outs for the listeners?

David:

Well, I would just build on that. Because I agree with you there, Tracy. Not all skills are created equal, and it could also be said that organizations are not created equally either. So a skills-based approach that is right for organization A might not be the right approach for organization B. And a lot of what we do is helping organizations figure out what's right for them. So the kind of watch out here is to try and examine talent management processes, talent acquisition processes, and really determine what approach will best support what they're trying to do with their talent strategy. So that would kind of be my add there.

John:

Yeah. Well, Tracy and David, this has been fantastic. But before we go, is there anything maybe that we didn't discuss when it comes to this topic that we should have, or maybe even a question that I should have asked that I didn't? Tracy?

Tracy:

Well, John, we covered a lot of ground. I just really love what David just said and think it's important to just reiterate that when it comes to looking at skills, this goes beyond a talent acquisition exercise, and it really is part of a wider talent management strategy in terms of getting the organization to a place where you can identify where the skills are currently in your workforce, what the skills are that you're going to need in the workforce. There's a lot of actual heavy lifting that needs to happen in terms of connecting skills with the work of the business and being able to do that in a very elegant and agile way. There's a lot of really fabulous HR tech that's out there to help us to link all of those things. It's quite the journey, but I really do think that it's worth it.

John:

How about you, David? Any final thoughts for the listeners?

David:

Well, I think we covered a lot. What I'd really love to leave people with is the kind of thought that this is an entire mindset shift and how we think about people's value within an organization. And because of that, it does require a change management lift. As Tracy was saying, that if you just deploy this in TA and not across the rest of the life cycle, then you may not receive the optimal benefits from this type of approach. And we do think that there are benefits to be realized here.

John:

Yeah, those are great words of wisdom. Well, Tracy and David, thank you so much for coming on and doing this. We really appreciate it.

Tracy:

Thanks for having us.

David:

Yeah, thanks so much for having us. Great to be here, John. Thank you.

John:

Well, thank you again, and to all of you out there listening, we hope you enjoyed this episode. I mean, we really did cover a heck of a lot of ground, and I think we did exactly what we set out to do, which was first illustrate why it's so important to not only consider candidates who have the experience that you're looking for, but ones who have the right skills as well. And second, arm you with ways that you can get more adept at spotting those skills. Thank you so much for listening.